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PDF versionI am a resident of Clearfield and am also a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For those people who feel that they will be able to change some of the basic doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ as written in the New and Old Testament regarding sexuality, they are sadly mistaken. Many churches will hold the line of this concept.
For LDS, our doctrines come from God as recorded in Genesis in the Bible. I am not aware of anywhere in the scriptures where God said to Adam to go and replenish by himself, or the same to Eve. It appears that God created man and woman in the way we are now, similar, but complimentary.
He also said that neither one was complete without the other in the ways of God. I realize that we are not all born perfect into this world, Some have defects of various kinds and some of these are from diseases and some from genetics. I was born without perfect feet and legs, but surgery helped correct this. But the basic way we came was supposed to be so there could be multiplying of the species and raising offspring to be decent people if possible.
I suggest that if people want to do certain changes, that is their personal choice; but don't expect churches to automatically agree, or expect that churches are democratically run. Most are not. Why waste your time trying to get various church leaders to change their basic doctrine, especially when those changes don't work that way?
David R. Hall
Clearfield
silly
The LDS church changes their doctrine semiannually. In the last 100 years there has been more changes to the LDS church doctrine that in 1000 years of any other religion. They could make abortions and gay marriage OK and it wouldn't be as dramatic as some of the other changes made.
Marriage is defined by a man and 1 to many women.... Changed
Blacks don't get to have the priesthood or go to the temple (i.e.- go to heaven) ..... Changed
Temple garments are to be one piece, not to be altered for ANY reason... Changed
Temple cerimony... changed
Eat meat sparingly and only in the winter.... Know any LDS people doing that?
It's just amazing!
the LDS trivial God
Great points there Ryan well done. The mOrMoNs change their God laws about as often as they change their garments (Oh I love the new tearaway style garments you see hanging down below their shorts at Wal-Mart).
If you want the mOrMoNs to change something way fast just make it deal with money. Say like if the mOrMoN church bought the entire Burger king chain then God would say that eating at McDonalds and Wendy's would be a sin, and forbidden by God's law. (going to McDonalds is not a sin, eat there would be a sin).
Does God really care if mOrMoNs drink Coke of Diet-coke or Pepsi......what a trivial little God they have.
Law
Exodus 20:12 "Honour thy father and thy mother..." "Ex 20:14 "Thou shalt not commit adultery" Not too hard to figure out homosexuality would end reproduction; honoring a mother and father is not the same as honoring same sex parents. Leviticus 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is an abomination" Pretty direct here isn't it? Romans 1:26-32 "...women did change the natural use into that which is against nature...men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their list one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly...God gave them over to a reprobate mind...filled with unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity, wisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenant breakers, without naturral affection."
As to Efilatis wanting ot become more like Him. Not quite; surrendering to God is not the same as becoming as gods ""God doth know that in the day ye eat therof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil"- Gen3:5 Mormon Aaronic Priests are not of the tribe of Levi or descendants of Aaron as ordained of God. LIkewise Meschisedek is the title of Jesus whose genealogy is of Judah. Mormon men are given patriarchal blessing of descent from Ephraim, Manesseh or Dan if they are related to Joseph Smith, not Judah. Worth noting here is Ephraim is not listed in Rev 7 as being "Saved", so if this appplies to you, it's time to wake up.
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" Jude 7
Howard the Sodom
Oh my holy god Howard === “Your about as smart as a wet paper bag with dead fish eggs in it.” NO ONE cares about you holy laws, those are your alone to obey, we are talking about the real world not you insane on-line meltdown psychosis religion where your words are god's word and you telling me the earth does not turn and the Apollo missions never happened. Howard your now running at critical mass and will melt down real soon. I have to agree that your a pagan and not real member of God's followers. Yes ~ your a sinner and a cultist of your own making.
Alteration
The Word of God contains 8 Contracts; when a contract is broken by Man, God has thus far made a new contract "Covenant" or "Testament" which means "His Word" The list of broken Covenants are: 1st Eden (eternal life in exchange for avoiding the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) 2nd Adam (body to experience pain and death) 3rd Noah (reporulated the earth in exchange for not drinking of blood or eating of human flesh) 4th Abraham (God blessed his descendants in exchange for remaining in Canaan) 5th Moses (live by the 10 Commandments; Witches were suffered not to live among Israel lest their doctrine would be incorporated as it is today) 6th Palestine (the Earth would be inherited through obedience to God in exchange for being scattered "Diaspora" which still exists today; Israel is not Jewish and Churches are not where born Again Christians are) 7th David (Build a Temple and God would come in flesh to lead the world; the Crucifixion of God ended that contract) 8th Love God; Love our Neighbors (The Holy Ghost has provided teh Word of God (KJV) and a way for interaction with God but War has been nearly constant since then which is not part of the Contract).
If you want Eternal life you need to have the rules of the Contract. Like Marriage to a spouse, the same rules apply in the Marriage to the Lamb. Whatever would need to be kept secret from your wife or husband is however known by God,, so think twice before joining or accepting any Secret Society membership.
On the contrary
Church's can, and DO, change their doctrines. It's simply a matter of if THEY feel it convient or that it's advantagous to do so. For example, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Exodus 22:18 King James Bible). Are churches demanding the hunting and killing of witches? The Catholic Church willing slaughtered women (and men) accused of being "witches" (Malleus Maleficarum) in the 15th Century. Needless to say that small line in the bible is conviently ignored and not "inforced" in today's world. "An alter of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee. And if thou wilt make me an alter of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it." (Exodus 20:24-25 KJB). When was the last time a person brought their sheep and oxen to church? Might make for a bit of a mess. Also since nearly every item in a church has been altered by man's "tool" they can no longer be called "pure" can they? "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and adulteress shall surely be put to death" (Leviticus 20:10 KJB). Where is the law that makes adultery an offense worthy of capital punishment? From my young 23 years of life I can think of no execution of a person because they cheated on their spouse.
I could go on, however, I believe I have made my point. If the bible, as well as any other doctrines, were TRULY followed as the rule of law WITHOUT changes or exceptions then this world would be far more brutal and imperfect than it already is.
Change vs. Fulfilment
People always point to the Old Testament and then say, "see you changed".
The difference here is, in the Old Testament, we had the PHYSICAL law of God. Remember Moses? He had to get 2 sets of laws from God, because the people weren't ready for the higher law.
Then Christ came. He didn't "destroy" the law, he "fulfilled" the law. He replaced the PHYSICAL law with the SPIRITUAL law.
Hence the difference between the OLD Testament doctrine on Homosexuality vs. the NEW Testament doctrine on Homosexuality. Homosexuality is still against the laws of God, but the penalty or punishment is different.
Man cannot change the Laws of God.
Now, if you want to talk about the Jews and why the Jews are no longer fllowing the Law of God (as they believe it to be still contained in the Old Testament) then we would be having a different conversation here. But we are talking about Christianity, and Christians believe that Christ came, fulfilled the Law, and established a Higher Law for us.
The Higher Law is a spiritual law, one that does require some sacrifice - but not of animals, it requires some devotion - but not of wearing sackcloth, shreading your clothing, or throwing ashes on your head.
the Higher Law requires that you CHOOSE to follow Christ, and when you make that choice, you agree to do as God asks, and in return, He will provide for your Salvation.
cop-out
This is the arguement I hear the most. Spiritual or physical, laws are laws. The Old Testament is still a part of the bible therefore it is still god's law. If it isn't then why is it still in the bibile? Fulfilment is very much a form of change, and not two seperate things. If I fulfill a contract I have CHANGED it from being incomplete to complete. If god is so powerful then why doesn't it just make the choice for us? We weren't "ready for the higher law" and yet we are given the ability to think for ourselves. Free thinking is far more powerful a force than blind following, especially when beliefs are indoctrinated into us since we are born. Sure you may be right but if you are then god made us all the way we are and thus cannot morally condemn us for what we do or do not follow.
Change
You are correct, God's law is the same, Homosexuality was condemned in the Old Testament, New Testament, and in Modern Times by those of the Christian faith, because it is God's law.
Free Thinking is God's greatest gift, which is why he doesn't "make the choice for us".
Changing the terms of the contract is different from fulfilling the contract. We still have sacrifice, commandments, obedience, faith, etc...all parts of God's law, only the manifistations of these laws have changed, the expectations that we do them has not.
Part of that law is to try to become like Him... if it were not possible, He would not expect it of us.
efialtis is a whimp that is bailing on the hard questions!
efialtis if you can not answer the hard questions, or your just being a Mormon pansy about it then stop trying to teach you false religion on line. Where in the Old Testament or the New Testament does it say word for word that homosexuality if forbidden by god's law - show me where - not some lame vague passage but a word for word law. And your still have not confronted the question I asked of you - and your still doing the twist dance. Your so lame efialtis I would be embarrassed to belong to a church that would let a hypocrite in it like you. Now man up you early return missionary with no education out side of you mother's kitchen and answer the question. You have to act like a man before you can become a man you whimp.
More M&Ms from efialtis
There you go again efialtis playing you word games. You always twist words to mean what you want and never really confront the subject matter in the topic.
Where in the Ten Commandments does it say Homosexuality is wrong? Where did Jesus say that Homosexuality is wrong? If you want to be like Jesus Christ then never take a wife and hang out with men all the time, seems kind of gay to me.
Not all people of the world believe in Jesus or god or your holy laws, even less believe in the carpetbagger religion of Mormons – so not everyone cares what you myth books have to say. No one wants to change your laws for gay rights because those laws are not real. But gays are going to change the real judicial word of government law, you can do what ever you want with you holy laws but they are not law of the land. And you still have not address how your Mormon church “did change” its religion to meet the legal demands of ending polygamy. Mormons are a cult of clandestine people, most are nice people just mixed up on how the world really works. You (efialtis) are a very poor spokes man for the LDS church because you fail to confront the issues and use false doctrine as your defense, you are still a disgrace to you church.
Moron of a Mormon = M&M
efialtis - Man your just moron of a Mormon, did you forget your polygamy background, of did your mommy leave that out of you homeschooling.
That Was Just A Stupid Letter!
No one said ANYTHING about changing ANY church doctrine, it is the word of law that is GOING to be changed. It is time for the religious overzealous people to realize that religion does not control our laws and legal system. Your welcome to stay stuck in your outdated bible, but not all of us want to live in the dark ages.
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Greenday Tonight! Hooodeehooo
☮єχρєяιєи¢є☮ Peace and truth will always set you free
To sum it up...
I wrote a blog piece that summs it up;
this group, the one recently to do the Petition and the HandCart thing to deliver it to the LDS Church, they say they want "reconciliation" but what they really want is "capitulation".
From their web site:
"True reconciliation requires that parties on both sides of this issue be willing to honestly examine their attitudes, behaviors (including past behaviors), policies and practices—and be open to understanding, forgiveness (both asking for and accepting), and apology."
"suffer mistreatment, misunderstanding, or demonization as a consequence of the LDS church's official policies, actions, and teachings regarding sexual orientation"
"For Church leaders, reconciliation requires examining ways in which official statements, rhetoric, policy and practice have been injurious to gays and lesbians and their families and friends"
The whole purpose for their "petition" is to ask the LDS Church to change their policy, practices, teachings, attitudes, and behaviors concerning Homosexuality.
This cannot happen, should not happen... If the LDS Change their policy to suit man's desires, they violate God's law.
My whole Blog Post can be seen here:
http://efialtis.blogspot.com/2009/11/prop-8-hate-redux.html
Mistakes
DNA has 1 function; split and reform itself from Amino Acids; In theory, Eternal Life is possible so long as DNA perfectly replicates. It was perfect at Creation and would have stayed prefect had Man not sinned. Suppose God did not make a mistake and Created same sex attraction. That would violate His Word "A man shall cleave unto the woman and become one flesh"; violate His warnings against lying with Man as a Woman and vice versa and make no sense as in theory, Adam and Steve would have ended the Race of Man at 2 persons. Condemnation? No way, but Sin, according to the Word of God, absolutely.
Changing doctrine
That's ironic, since no one tried to change doctrine more than joseph smith, who for all intents, threw out the bible in favor of his book of fiction. For anyone willing to do open minded, independent research on joseph smith and the book of mormon, (not the official church version of events) using historical records, and modern scientific and archaeological methods, it quickly becomes evident that he tried to perpetuate a fraud, most likely as a quick way to get a following and the hoped for fame and fortune. But then again, when believers are willing to rely on blind faith, it's difficult to convince them otherwise.
God doesn't make mistakes. No
God doesn't make mistakes. No one expects anyone to change their beliefs, just to grant equal rights to all the citizens of the US, regardless of their race, color, or creed. There are two beautiful, intelligent young men in our family who are gay. I know how they were raised. In no way would that have contributed to the way they turned out.
So what are you saying? That
So what are you saying? That homosexuality can be fixed by surgery? Also, please enlighten me as to the Gospels of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament...other than in an LDS puplication.
Don't claim to preach "the gospel" if you are simply quoting from some LDS author or from one of your disproven "other" testaments.