JIM KONIG, publisher: If you could please start by telling us a little about your family, yourself and why you are running?

EVAN McMULLIN: Great. Well, as far as my family is concerned I think it’s important because it informs my perspective on service to the country that my family, the McMullins, came to America in the late 1600s, early 1700s. They fought in the Revolutionary War. They joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints soon after its its founding and fled persecution on the East Coast and in the United Kingdom. And they crossed the Atlantic, for those who joined in the United Kingdom, for those who were still there. But for those who were in America, after the Revolutionary War, they became shipbuilders in Maine and joined the church and then were forced to leave their businesses because of persecution. And they trekked across the plains and then the Rockies and settled here in Utah in the mid 1800s. … My grandfather … served at Pearl Harbor. And ultimately, I was recruited by the Central Intelligence Agency when I was a sophomore at Brigham Young University and started in a student training program then. So I would do a semester back in Virginia training and then a semester at school until I graduated. When I did graduate, that’s about the time 9/11 happened. Hard to believe it’s been so long since that day, but I finished my training and deployed overseas as an undercover CIA officer and operations officer, where I conducted counterterrorism operations. Did that for about a decade … and so, spent a lot of time away from family. I was originally born in Utah County where I live now. And you asked about my family, not about my sort of career path, so come back to the family part. But it took me longer than usual to finally get married. When you spend 11 years in the agency overseas, it’s very hard to pursue that goal, but it was always, it’s always been a goal of mine to be a father and a husband and it didn’t work out exactly the way I thought it would, but such is life. And a couple of years ago, I met a wonderful woman, the type of the woman I’ve always hoped to meet and her name is Emily and we got married about a year and a half ago. And her first husband died of brain cancer when they had five kids 8 years old and younger. And so I became not only finally a husband but an instant dad, and I’ve had a lot of fun with that and they’re great kids. Again, it’s not the way I thought it would happen. But I wouldn’t change a thing about it. So we’re a relatively new family. We’ve got three boys ages 15, 12 and 9 and then we have 7-year-old girl twins who are a delight as well. And we live in Highland, Utah. So so as far as the family is concerned, that gives you a snapshot why I’m running. I’m running because I’m deeply concerned about our country and where it’s headed right now.

My view and what drives me politically are those ideals in our Declaration of Independence, that wer’e created free and equal, and that our deepest purpose is the pursuit of happiness. And that’s why we have a system of self-government. A democratic republic is laid out by our Constitution, and we have elections that ought to be free, fair and secure. And when we vote someone into office, they ought to be accountable to us. And when we vote them out, they ought to go peacefully, just the basics. And I think all those things are at risk right now. And I believe that America’s core source of strength is its commitment to our core ideals. Truly, it’s not political pabulum. I truly believe that the core source of America’s strength is our commitment to those ideals and when it weakens, so does our country. We become less prosperous, we become less secure, etc. And we’ve seen in at different points in our history when that’s been the case. Such is the case now, I believe, and so I’m running to help keep our country committed to its core ideals, Democrats and independents together. And then we have built on that and found trust in our shared commitment to those ideals. We can then find common ground to solve many other challenges, whether it’s lowering inflation, getting our fiscal house in order as a country, protecting our air and water, lowering health care costs, all the problems that are just stacking up in our country without being solved. There is common ground sufficient to help solve those problems between most Utahns and most Americans, but it requires leadership that will take bringing people to that place. And so that’s why I’m running, to do that. My opponent has become someone who embodies the politics of division and extremism in America. That’s not the Utah way. When my great-great-grandfather William Wood Sr. crossed the plains in the Rockies, he kept a journal, and we still have that journal. And along the way, he wrote that, he described this place we now call home and he called it “the haven of our hopes.” And I still get emotional when I say that because it’s just so inspiring to me and to this effort. But I believe that Utah must still be the haven of our hopes, but it also now must be the haven of the hopes of all Americans.

I think Utah needs better representation in the U.S. Senate, just as much as Washington and the country needs Utah’s leadership. And we’re at a point in this country where we’re so divided that it seems now is that we’re coming apart. But here in Utah, we have a track record of finding common ground to solve really difficult problems. And we’ve been sending senators to the chamber who I think have embodied that approach, whether it was Sen. Bennet or Sen. Hatch, or now Sen. Romney. Sen. Lee is an exception to that; he has a different approach: It’s my way or the highway all the time. And that’s why he’s one of the least productive members of the Senate having only passed 10 bills in 12 years. Sen. Hatch passed more than that in a single Congress. And Sen. Romney’s running laps around Lee right now because he’s willing to work constructively with members of his own party and members of the opposing party. And so I’m committed to that approach. I think it’s more consistent with our way of doing things here in Utah, and has been for a long time. When my great-great-grandfather William Wood arrived here, many other Europeans and Americans had crossed through these parts before him — traders, trappers, explorers — and they had seen that this was a beautiful place, but they also concluded that it was too harsh to settle, and so they moved on to easier places. But when our state’s ancestors arrived here, they knew they had to make it work, and they did. And they did so by being committed to community by working together to solve problems, even though they came from different places. And I truly believe that that, that this environment, beautiful but harsh, and the beginnings of our state truly do inform our political and leadership DNA, our community DNA still in Utah. And that’s something special that I think we need to take to Washington. I think this is a moment in our nation’s history when the country needs our leadership. And lastly, I’ll just say … if we prevail here, it will make Utah the most influential state in the union, and we will do a tremendous amount of good for it, for ourselves and for the country.

KONIG: It has been well documented you’re not a fan of Donald Trump. If he is the Republican candidate for president, would you vote for him? If not, will you vote for the Democrat?

McMULLIN: Well, look, I’ve been unhappy with the options that both major parties have been giving us for years now. I mean, in 2016, I took matters into my own hand and ran a modest independent campaign. Sen. Lee also was unhappy with his major party choices in 2016 as well, even voted for me that year. But I just, I pray that we have better options from both parties. We need more unifying leaders who are committed to our ideals, who will not turn Americans against each other, who will govern with facts and reason. And I just urge both parties to offer better leadership. Both parties. We’re a two-party system in this country. I’d love to see a multiparty system; that’s not what we are. As long as we’re a two-party system, we need leaders who are committed to our ideals and committed to bringing people together to solve problems, and I just don’t see that, and I hope to have that. I do hope to have better options from both parties next cycle.

KONIG: I’m not sure about the answer on that, if that was a yes or no.

McMULLIN: The answer is, I am not a supporter of Donald Trump. I’m not a supporter of Donald Trump or Joe Biden, and I’ve, I think, as most Utahns have, some of us have made tough decisions, and we’ve held our noses and made tough decisions over the last couple of cycles at least. So I get that sometimes when there’s no other option one has to do that. In 2016, I did something myself about that. But the easier path for the country is if both parties were will simply get back to nominating people who can unite rather than divide.

KONIG: OK, thank you.

McMULLIN: Just one thing. I just want to make sure you know, I’m making a statement about both parties here. I mean, clearly, I don’t think any — no one should doubt where I stand on Donald Trump, OK. I mean, everybody knows where I stand there. My position hasn’t changed. But he is not, it’s not like he’s the only problem we face. It’s not like he’s the only example of divisive leadership we have. I think both parties have fallen too much under the influence of the extremes in their ranks. It’s natural in a two-party system for there to be extremes on both ends of the political spectrum. They’ve just, in my view, gained too much influence in both parties. And so I’m not a supporter of Donald Trump, but he’s not the only challenge we face and he’s not the only divisive leader in the country.

KONIG: If Mr. Trump is elected president, how could you/would you work with him as an independent representing Utah? How would that work?

McMULLIN: Well, I will say, I will work with anyone and everyone who wants to do something good for our state and our country, and that includes any president from any party. And that’s because that’s the job. I think what we see nowadays is we elect someone from one party and they go to Washington and they’re willing to work with members of that party and president of that party, and against those who are not of their party. I just think that’s wrong. You’re doing a disservice to your people. … But let me make one thing clear. We have to be willing to work with with presidents of both parties, and to hold them accountable. This idea that you go to Washington and you become a bootlicker for a president of your own party, and 100% opposition to a president of the opposing party. That’s wrong. It doesn’t serve Utahns’ interests. We need people like Sen. Romney, who will go to Washington and work with whoever to do good things. That’s my approach. But you can work with presidents of either party and hold them accountable at the same time, you can do that. And in fact, that is the job. That is the job. And so that’s what I’m committed to doing and that applies to Donald Trump, that applies to any anybody on the Democratic side. But I will hold any president accountable while I work with them to do good things for you.

TIM VANDENACK, reporter: So I essentially want to get your take how you differ from Republicans and from Democrats, how you describe yourself politically. A lot of people like to debate, “He’s just a Democrat in Republican clothing.” … So, in your own words, I guess.

McMULLIN: Yeah, I would say that on the political spectrum I consider myself to be center-right. But what animates me more than any of that, and certainly more than party affiliation, obviously, is a deep commitment to our core values as a country that we’re created free and equal, and therefore government must be aligned with that, with those human realities, meaning that our government is one in which leaders are accountable to people, not the other way around. And that’s what drives me more than anything is a commitment to those values. And by the way, I think those values, I know those values are capable of unifying people across party lines, because I’m doing it. We’re building a coalition of Republicans, Democrats and independents in this race, because we start with our ideals, with our foundational American ideals. And that’s what drives me more. … I’m a cautious person by nature. It may not seem that way it sometimes, but … My wife and I love to spend time exploring in the mountains and I’m always the one that says, “Maybe we shouldn’t go up that,” or “Maybe it’s time to turn around and go home.” That’s the way our relationship works. I’m just a cautious person by nature, in my mind. And what I believe conservatism to truly be is a commitment to defending our ideals and the institutions that allow for the realization of those ideals in our day-to-day lives. … Abraham Lincoln said to the Southern slave owners who said they were conservatives, he asked them, “What are you trying to conserve?” And he said, “I’m trying to conserve our core ideals,” and that’s what he thought conservatism was was defending our core ideals. I agree with that, that when I talk about my conservatism, it’s a commitment to our core ideals as a country, those that have made America strong and prosperous. … Edmund Burke … he was one of the founders of modern conservatism. He believed that true conservatism was a commitment first and foremost to our institutions, because without institutions, you couldn’t realize core ideals. So you couldn’t realize freedom without the institutions that protected it. So, my view is that Lincoln and Burke had it right, but together not in opposition to each other. They might have debated … which was more important, preserving our institutions or preserving our values. I don’t divide the two; I think both are necessary. We have to start with ideals, but we do need institutions, like our Constitution, like our separation of powers, like free and fair and secure elections, in order to realize our ideals. So that’s what drives me politically, but for shorthand, I’m on the center-right.

VANDENACK: And in a quick follow up, so up until 2016 though, you were a Republican, right?

McMULLIN: I’ve been a registered Independent for most of my adult life, but until 2016 I was one of these independents that was, you know, Republican, only Republican. I donated to campaigns only on the Republican side, only voted for Republicans, only worked for Republicans. I became the chief policy director for the House Republicans and before that an advisor on national security issues to House Republicans, all as an independent but a conservative independent. It was in 2016 when Trump rose to the primaries that I became concerned and decided … I needed to step away from the party.

VANDENACK: Yeah, just to follow up that. Trump is what pretty much made you come out, specifically, more forcefully, as an independent?

McMULLIN: Yeah. … During my CIA service, I lived in countries controlled by authoritarians and dictators. And he, he talked exactly like all of them. And it was clear to me that he wanted to be a dictator in America. And I’ll never forget a day when, you know, this story hasn’t been told in the media enough. So, you can check to see if it has and if I’ve written a little bit about it, but but I’ll relate it to you here. In June or July of 2016, Donald Trump was clearly going, he wasn’t quite the the nominee yet but he was going to be the nominee. And if you recall, he was struggling to win the support of House Republicans. It was a brief time, but there was a time when that was the case. He came to Congress and gathered all the House Republicans and their senior advisors and we were all in a room, probably about 270 of us, and he gave his remarks intended to persuade Republicans to join him. And then after his remarks, we went to question and answer and a Republican Representative from Indiana — a smart woman, she had been a prosecutor in Indiana — Susan Brooks, I believe was her name, stood up and asked an important question. She said, Mr. Trump, if you’re elected, will you honor the Constitution? And he sort of looked to the left and look to the right and chuckled and said, ‘Well, sure. I’ll honor Article One of the Constitution. I’ll honor Article Two of the Constitution. I’ll even honor Article 13 of the Constitution. And there was a gasp in the room as everyone realized that he was pledging to honor a part of the Constitution that didn’t exist. And for me, the concern was not that he was president and he hadn’t read the Constitution, which is an important read if you’re pursuing the highest office in the country. But what really concerned me was that he didn’t care. It was that the Constitution would be a speed bump for him in his pursuit of power. And though a conservative who had only been aligned with the Republican Party, knowing what I knew about the damage that someone pursuing that kind of power could do to the country, I knew that it was time to take a different approach.

HARRISON EPSTEIN, community editor: You’ve talked a lot about, if elected, Utah would be the most influential state and … having yourself and Sen. Romney, who has a solid legacy of bipartisan work, being the last line of defense for legislation. Where do you see yourself, and therefore Utah, leading, and on what issues and in what ways?

McMULLIN: Thank you for the question. I think the — and if you want to get into the mechanics of all of that, why I believe this will make Utah the most influential state in the union, happy to get into that. But you’re going a step further and saying, OK, what will you do with it, which is important too. I think the No. 1 thing, Harrison, is showing the country a different type of politics, showing a different way forward for our country. Like, we are turning against each other to a point now where the very future of our country is at risk. We are coming apart. We don’t solve problems anymore. Our economy is destabilizing, our politics are destabilizing. We’re seeing a rise of political violence. Meanwhile, China and Russia are becoming more belligerent and aggressive. Russia doing what it’s doing, obviously in Ukraine, trying to destabilize other countries in Europe, China now threatening Taiwan. We as Americans need a strong country. The world depends on a strong America, actually. And please don’t misinterpret that to be mean that I think we should play the world’s policemen. I don’t believe that, in fact. But I do believe that the world benefits from a strong, stable America. The cause of freedom, the human cause, benefits from it.

And right now, our country is weakening to the point that our future is at risk. And so we used to, as Utahns, have something different here. We have something special; let’s call it what it is. And Washington and the entire country needs it. You see it in the way Sen. Romney leads, and I’m committed to that approach, to finding common ground to solve problems, to keep America strong enough with all this divisiveness and this lack of impact and effectiveness from our other senator who can’t get anything, almost anything, done in the Senate. … So that’s the main thing is just a new kind of politics. That’s the main thing. But on issues, what can we lead on? I mean, you name it. Everything. Nothing will cross through the Senate without the support of Utah if we prevail, almost nothing, if anything. So what do I, for me, what are the priorities? No. 1, we have to strengthen our system of self-government. We have to ensure that the institutions that are capable of allowing us to realize liberty and our equality here in America remains strong. We have got to keep going. What am I talking about? Defending the Constitution, first and foremost, ensuring that the separation of powers is in place, protecting our elections, the right to vote, and the peaceful transfer of power, all of these things. So that’s my No. 1 priority. Because if we don’t have that, we can’t solve any problems. Second, ongoing from there, we need to get our fiscal house in order. Our national debt is over $31 trillion. It’s almost tripled during Lee’s time there. Fact check me. He started with $12 (trillion) to $13 trillion now it’s over $31 (trillion). We’ve got inflation that’s out of control. That’s got to be a No. 1 priority, lowering health care costs for Utahns and Americans across the country, protecting our air and water. And I definitely think you talk and lead on that issue as well because we feel the consequences of failing to do that so severely here in Utah. And then lastly, because I come from a national security background, I want to ensure that our national defense remains strong. And I believe we’re wasting a lot of money on dated weapon systems these days that won’t keep us safe into the future. And so I’m committed to standing up to special interests who would keep us spending too much on dated weapon systems and ensure that we’re investing in advanced technologies that will keep us safe going forward. And so that’s another priority. I think you talk and lead on all of those and many more issues.

RYAN CHRISTNER, managing editor: I had some questions related to your political independence, which is an issue that your opponent has made several statements toward in a critical manner, particularly the fact that you’ve courted support from other parties, the Democratic Party.

McMULLIN: And the United Utah party and Republicans and independents. Yeah, go ahead. I’ve seen the attacks.

CHRISTNER: So how would you allay the concerns of people like Sen. Lee who would characterize that kind of behavior is opportunistic?

McMULLIN: Well, I would say that his concerns are opportunistic and Sen. Lee can only view the world through his partisan lenses. And that’s what he does. I mean, it’s Republican versus Democrat, us versus them and on and on and on. And what has he gotten done with that? I’m building a cross-partisan coalition, which means I’m willing to work with Republicans, Democrats and independents to win this race and to govern. And of course, that is a threat to Sen. Lee, and had I not taken that approach, we would not be in a competitive race with Lee. We are in a competitive race because I have reached out to members of all parties and said two things: Are you committed to our core ideals as a country? And if the answer is yes then please join our coalition. That’s what I’ve said that has created a threat to Lee, because he can’t do that. All he can do is fearmonger about the other side and appeal to his base. He can’t grow his base because he’s adopted the politics of division and extremism himself. So I’m committed to maintaining my independence, which means I’m not going to Washington or anywhere else to join a political party or to be a bootlicker for a leader of any party. I’m not going to do it. And the reason I’m not going to do it is because I do think our country needs more independent leadership. I can go into why I believe that but I do believe that’s the case. Also from a practical perspective, I cannot keep this coalition together unless I maintain my independence, which is another reason why I’m committed to doing it. If I say I’m going to join one party or the other, then this coalition falls apart. … You should know that he attacks me because I raise money from Democrats. Well, I also raise money from Republicans. We’re building a cross-partisan coalition. Mike Lee can’t even get his head around it, because we have both Republican and Democratic donors. For example, people can donate to us through a Democratic fundraising platform or Republican platform. In fact, we’re on the same Republican platform that Mike Lee’s on. And so that’s because we’re building a cross-partisan coalition and I know that blows his mind. But that’s why we’re in a competitive race, and that’s why we have an opportunity to send him home this year.

CHRISTNER: Do you worry that being an independent might affect how you’re able to operate and build relationships in the Senate? Obviously, at least some Republicans feel scorned by the fact that you worked so closely with Republicans in the past, like you mentioned, and you’ve now distanced yourself a little bit at least from from certain people in the party. And do you feel like Democrats would feel the same, that they helped you get into office and now they feel like maybe you would somehow be beholden to help support Democratic principles? So do you feel like both sides would be kind of looking at you to behave in a certain way and do you feel like that would would cause any tension?

McMULLIN: I’ll tell you that I am already taking phone calls from people on both sides of the of the aisle in the Senate, wondering if we can work together on this issue or that issue. It’s already happening. And that’s why I know so confidently that if we prevail in this way, it will make Utah the most powerful state in the union. And we hear a lot about West Virginia. Now, if we prevail, every single week, we’ll read in the national press the question, “What does Utah think?” It’s about time they asked. And I think with that influence we’ll be able to do a lot of good.

CHRISTNER: OK, one last question here. There seem to be more and more American politicians succeeding outside of the two major parties. Just some examples, Joseph Lieberman, Bernie Sanders, obviously. Do you feel like that’s a good thing? I feel like I know your answer here. And do you think that we’ll ever get to a point where there are legitimate options beyond the two party system in meaningful elections?

McMULLIN: Well, look, you know my answer already, but I’ll give you a couple of thoughts on this. Look, there’s no way that only two parties can represent fully represent a nation of 330-plus million people. It just can’t happen. And I think … that’s why we see 60-plus, 62 at least, percent, according to Pew, fact check me, of Americans saying they don’t feel well represented by either party. That’s why, according to our polling, 65% of Utahns say they’re ready to vote for an independent or they’re open to voting for an independent. I mean, we as Americans do not feel well-represented by the two parties. So I would like to see a multiparty system, ideally. Will that happen? I think it’s very tough. I think the parties are both, you know, they’ve worked together to make it very difficult for any new party to emerge. Whether it happens or not, at this point, I do think there’s perhaps a growing opportunity for it. But it really depends on what the parties do. If the Republican and/or the Democratic parties are capable of representing, if they succeed in making most Americans feel represented, then I don’t think you’ll see the emergence of a capable third party. But if both parties continue to drift further towards their extremes, then it will create a path and a demand in American politics for an alternative. And it’ll be interesting to see what happens in the next presidential election. Who do Republicans nominate? Who do the Democrats nominate? Will it be Joe Biden? Will it be someone else? Will it be Bernie Sanders? If it’s Bernie Sanders versus Donald Trump then … many Americans, I think, will feel poorly represented in particular. And so, I think we could see a situation where there’s political demand for something else, and there are many capable people anticipating that situation … and preparing for such a situation. But it really depends on what the parties do.

CRAIG CONOVER, retail advertising manager: As you know, green energy has become a huge issue throughout the country. And I just wondered what your thoughts were on us moving the automotive … industry to green, completely electric by the year 2030.

McMULLIN: I’d have to study a little bit more to sort of give more detailed thoughts on a timeline, but I do think that it’s important too, especially in Utah, where 48% of the pollution on the Wasatch Front is caused by vehicles. And there’s no way of avoiding it, we need to decrease those harmful emissions. And so I think we do need to incentivize the adoption of new technologies that will help protect our environment and our clean air. And I’m not sure about the timeline. But it is an urgent need for us to do that here in Utah and I think, of course, more broadly, in the country, in the world.

CONOVER: A little bit on infrastructure. How would you change the infrastructure so that we don’t end up in Utah as it did in California at the end of the summer, when people wanted to run their air conditioners Or charge their cars and they had to make that decision, whether one or the other, or go to a rolling blackout?

McMULLIN: Obviously, infrastructure will be huge, which is why I supported the bipartisan infrastructure bill that that Sen. Romney helped negotiate and pass, and we’ve already seen tens of millions of dollars sent or marked to be sent to Utah to help strengthen our infrastructure. A lot of that’s on the water side, which is critical, obviously, as well. It’s going to take a lot more than that, frankly. But I’m committed to investing in infrastructure here in Utah and making sure we have the federal dollars to help us do that. Because whether it’s water or air quality, power generation, our population is growing very, very quickly, our economy’s growing very, very quickly. And we are going to have to make serious investments in infrastructure, and my opponent routinely votes against them. Now we’re in the middle of severe, severe drought, and he’s voting against water infrastructure bills, just shows you how wrong Sen. Lee is for our state.

CONOVER: I understand that. But how would you help us to move away from the fossil fuels that power our nation, because wind and solar don’t happen all the time?

McMULLIN: Well, they do. I think we need to, we need to help make those investments. I think we can look at other options, other alternatives to wind and solar. I personally think it’s all of the above. … My approach is to ensure that we’re making investments that can help produce cleaner sources of energy. There are no truly clean sources of energy, but cleaner sources, and I think the federal government has a place to help invest in those in those projects.

KONIG: OK, very good. Regarding health care, we all agree it seems to be very costly, especially if you have health issues. A recent study published on Oct. 20, 2022, by Casey Morrison, senior health reporter for dailymail.com, reports the following: “Utahns pay the least, incurring $5,892 in annual health-related costs. In no other states do residents pay less than $6,000 on average.” Since Utah is the lowest, how do you intend to lower our costs even more?

McMULLIN: Well, our costs are still way too high. And we don’t need to be paying as much for health care as we do as a country or as Utahns. … We’re starting to allow Medicare, for example, to negotiate on prescription drugs, but not it’s not enough. I mean, it is ridiculous that we do not allow the American taxpayer to fully negotiate on prescription drugs as a part of a free and functioning market. And that’s what my opponent does. He takes large campaign checks from Big Pharma and then he votes against allowing Medicare to fully negotiate on prescription drugs. He introduces bills that would roll back the progress we’ve made on that front. This should not be a partisan issue, and I don’t believe it is, frankly. A cross-partisan majority of Utahns know that the prescription drug market is broken. This idea that major pharmaceutical companies can pay generic producers to not produce their off-patent drugs, that’s a corruption of the market. Or allowing producers of insulin, for example, to tweak their formula just enough to get a new patent or to extend their patents so that they can continue to overcharge on that. … We as Americans are subsidizing cheap drugs. … By the way, we overpay so that pharmaceutical companies can still make their money while charging less in better markets in Europe. That’s not the way it should be. Big pharmaceutical companies write big checks to our members. of Congress, to the Senate to the House, and then too many members of both chambers vote in favor of blocking the American taxpayer from negotiating in a free market for lower drug costs. And I just think it’s wrong. And so that’s one thing that can be done that helps Utahns and helps the whole country. Another thing is, I do think there are too many cases where provider monopolies are able to charge 600% to 700% profit margins on basic services. Over the last year or two, Axios and the LA Times have done good research and investigative reporting on this. I mean, it is totally out of control … and we need to do something about that too, about the provider monopolies that are gouging patients at that level. Show me a market where people are charging sustained 600% to 700% profit margins and I’ll show you either a brand-new industry, a brand-new market, or I’ll show you a market that isn’t working, that’s been corrupted. And of course, when you have provider monopolies, that’s what happens. So I think we can, but we have to be willing to take on special interest groups in order to make those changes. And that’s why I’ve refused to take a cent from special interest groups, because I know in order to fix these problems in our country, we have to stand up to them. And so my campaign is fully funded by people and my opponent has taken over $4 million from special interests during his time in the Senate, and it’s why he represents them and not us.

VANDENACK: Just getting back to a question that Harrison made, the mechanics of how Utah becomes the most influential state. What is it? Because the Democrats and Republicans are tied and you become the swing vote, or what are the mechanics?

McMULLIN: Well, it wouldn’t have to be exactly that scenario. I mean, I think we’ve all seen over the last year or two that senators who act with greater independence really become the most influential people in the chamber, but also in Washington, second to the president, of course. And I want that for us. And again, if we prevail this way, it’ll mean, especially with Sen. Romney as the other senator, it will mean nothing or almost nothing passes the Senate without Utah’s support. That means almost nothing will happen in this country without the support of Utah. Think about that. Take a moment and think about that, what that means. It’s a tremendous opportunity for us. And like I said, I’m already getting calls from both sides, wondering can we work together on this issue or that issue, and I’m keeping those doors open and I’m pledging to work with both sides to get things done for our state in our country. So that’s how it will work. Sen. Lee says, “Oh, you won’t have committee assignments.” Well, Sen. Lee should take the time to read the Senate rules. Senate Rule 25 says that every senator has to have two committee assignments, and you can possibly have a third from a smaller list including the Intel Committee, which could be of interest to me. … We went back and looked at there’s never been someone elected as an independent to the Senate since at least World War II — we could find the data before that — who hasn’t had committee assignments,

VANDENACK: Although they might be lesser …

McMULLIN: They’re not going to be there. I’m having conversations with both sides about how we can work together. I’ll have good committee assignments.

EPSTEIN: We talked a little bit about health care and that’s, for both sides, kind of a tentpole issue. If you were elected and a 50-vote Democratic Senate puts forward their big one, Medicare for All, would you support it? Would you try to negotiate different limits? Where do you see yourself playing that?

McMULLIN: I think we have a moral obligation to ensure that every American has access to quality, affordable care. I do not support Medicare for All. I want to work within the current system to make reforms that require standing up to special interest groups to lower costs for Americans, that would allow more Americans, all Americans, to have access to quality, affordable care. That’s where I’m focused. I don’t want to overhaul the system again, it’s very disruptive. But within the system that exists, we have to stand up to special interest groups. It is obscene what Americans, what Utahns, even Utahns, pay for health care. It’s all because our elected representatives, our elected senators refuse to stand up to special interest groups. I will not do that. I will not fail to stand up to special interest groups that cause Americans to pay more than they need to. They’re breaking our personal banks, and they’re putting our country’s finances in a terrible position, all so that they can continue to cash in. … I want the pharmaceutical companies to thrive as well. I’m not against them. But we need fair markets. We still believe in fair markets, don’t we, and in competition? We don’t have that when it comes to the pharmaceutical, to the prescription drug market.

KONIG: Your position on funding and backing Ukraine, if you may.

McMULLIN: Look, I believe it’s important that we support the Ukrainians’ fight for freedom. And the reason is that it’s the right thing to do. But just as importantly, if we don’t, Putin will not stop in Ukraine. People say, “Well, Putin’s got an economy the size of Mexico’s or Italy’s. He can’t finance anything beyond Ukraine.” People who say that don’t understand Putin. He’s capable of toppling governments without firing a shot. He can do it when he wants to do it, in a very cost-effective way. He will destabilize all of Eastern Europe. And what’s stopping him from going further? History is full of examples of people like Vladimir Putin rolling as far as they can go. We have to stop him in Ukraine. It’s expensive. It’s costly, which is very unfortunate, but it will be far, far worse if we don’t stop him in Ukraine. And that’s why it’s important for us, I think, to provide military aid, intelligence support, humanitarian aid, economic aid with our allies. We can’t do it alone. We’re not doing it alone. But we need to continue building a national coalition of free nations and others who are willing to stand up to Russia and Ukraine and help the Ukrainians push the Russians out.

KONIG: Is there a red line with Russia?

McMULLIN: I think we need to be careful that we don’t do anything that would set off an escalatory cycle that we can’t control. I’ve expressed concerns about, for example, a “no-fly” zone that would be enforced by America and/or NATO. I think that could put us in a shooting conflict immediately with Russia. I think we need to be very careful about that. I think we need to be kept very careful about the kind of longer-range weapons that we provide to the Ukrainians that could trigger such an escalation as well. That said, I haven’t ruled out the latter. … There’s a question about whether the Ukrainians should be provided with missile technologies that are long-range enough to reach just inside of Russia to attack some of the Russian staging grounds inside Russian territory. I think we need to be very careful about that. Depending on what Vladimir Putin decides to do, the decisions he makes, how he is, you’re potentially escalating the conflict — might inform that decision. But I think we need to be very, very careful, which is why, in general, … I am in favor of supporting the Ukrainians’ fight rather than us engaging in the fight directly ourselves. And frankly, it’s been working. Our support has been working, it has been pushing the Russians back.

VANDENACK: Abortion, so are you are you pro-life, pro-choice? Has your position changed over the years?

McMULLIN: Nope, I’m pro-life. I’ve always believed in the sanctity of life. And I’m also committed to finding a more constructive way forward on the issue. This issue is tearing the country apart. It does not need to. One of the things we found in this campaign is that there is common ground between most Utahns and most Americans on this issue. I’m concerned about, you know, now that states are making decisions about abortion law, we have some states that are passing extremist legislation that would force, you know, we’ve all seen the examples of a 10-year-old rape victim to carry a pregnancy to term, it’s wrong. And now we’re talking about banning contraception in some states. I just think it’s very counterproductive. And I’m committed to standing up to the extremes and also finding a more constructive way forward on this issue. It does exist. I believe it’s making contraception more available. It’s also doing more to support women, children and families, and it’s imparting the right values to our youth. That’s what lowers the abortion rate in America, and most Utahns and Americans can get behind that.

VANDENACK: And is there wiggle room? Like, Biden, I think he describes himself as pro-life, against it. But he says, “I’m not going to tell this woman what she should or shouldn’t do.” What of that viewpoint? Like you, personally, being pro-life but also … allowing wiggle room for those with different beliefs to pursue these elective abortions, I guess, essentially.

McMULLIN: Well, it’s obviously a very complex issue because you’re talking about the life of a woman, which deserves protecting, and you’re talking about the life of an unborn child, which also, of course, deserves protecting. So my view is that the best way to manage all of that is to take the approach that I’ve described. The abortion rate can be reduced by making contraception more available so that there are less unwanted pregnancies and by doing more to support women, children and families so that you don’t have women finding themselves in impossible situations. And of course, teaching the right values to our children. I mean, these are the things that address the underlying issues. … My opponent and others are so committed to exploiting this most difficult issue so that they can raise more money and turn Americans against each other so that they’ll never be held accountable, because people are too divided against themselves to do it. And I just refuse to play that game. Sen. Lee has lied about my position multiple times in this race. And I’ve said very clearly who I am and what I stand for. And I’ve worked very hard to find a more constructive way forward on this issue, and I’m committed to it.

VANDENACK: Your position on immigration, and how should Dreamers be addressed?

McMULLIN: First and foremost, we’re a nation of laws, and without that our whole system falls apart. I’m somebody who does believe that we need to protect the border, the southern border in particular. It’s important to do that for various national security reasons. I also believe that immigrants are a tremendous source of strength in our country. In the CIA, I served with with immigrants, people who loved America as much as I do. And when we were attacked, they stood up as I did to protect our country. They went over into the Middle East and tracked down terrorist leaders and operatives as a part of the teams I served on. … Immigrants add tremendously to our economy. Forty-three percent, I think, of Fortune 500 companies are started by immigrants or their offspring. They bring tremendous strength to our country. They keep us vibrant and strong. That said, of course, we still need to be a nation of laws. When it comes to Dreamers, they did not choose to come to America; they were brought here by their parents as children. This is the only home they know. I think the idea that we would send them back to a place … they don’t know, they may not even speak the language, is cruel. And I think we should give them a path to citizenship. Now, it’s more complicated for other undocumented immigrants out there. You know, if you’re a 27-year-old person … from Europe and you always wanted to come to Utah or Manhattan and you finally did that and you overstayed your visa, it’s time to come home. But if you’ve been here for 10 or 20 years and you’ve started a family and you’ve been a law-abiding otherwise member of our country, or resident in our country, then those are more complicated situations. But I do think … it’s important to draw the line of dividing families. And lastly, I do want to say, we can protect our southern border and remain a nation of laws without treating immigrants inhumanely. And that’s something that we don’t seem to be able to find the balance there, but we can do it. This idea that we’re splitting up families on the border, putting kids in cages is wrong. We can treat immigrants humanely and still uphold our laws, and we ought to do both.

KONIG: What is your position for the state of Utah regarding the CDC recommending states include COVID-19 vaccines be added to their list of required vaccines needed to attend school?

McMULLIN: Look, I think it’s important to be vaccinated. I’ve been vaccinated, our kids are vaccinated. But I don’t think it’s the right move to force people to be vaccinated. I think it’s counterproductive. We should encourage everyone to be vaccinated unless they have a health concern for that. But government mandates for that, I think, are counterproductive. And I think we’ve seen that over the last couple of years. And I think it’s time now to rebuild our economy and to stabilize our economy and we’ve got to focus on that. But yes, I believe that we should be vaccinated and so should our children.

VANDENACK: Can I throw one thing just since it’s such a huge issue? Just, inflation. I guess your thoughts?

McMULLIN: Yeah, please, a very important issue.

VANDENACK: Democrats are at fault, Biden at fault or who’s at fault? How do you fix it?

McMULLIN: Look, both Republican and Democratic economists warned Joe Biden not to move forward with his $1.9 trillion aid package, and he did it anyway. And that was a tremendous mistake, and it did contribute heavily to the inflation we’re experiencing. It was a big mistake. In fact, even the White House now, I think, is acknowledging that that was a mistake, but … they should have known before that. But they’re not alone in overspending. … During the Trump presidency, we were in an expansionary economic period. And he spent recklessly too and added mightily to the national debt. And so both parties have a spending problem. We have a spending problem as a country, and it has contributed to inflation. … I’ll say this, Sen. Lee is very proud of the fact that he votes no against pretty much every spending bill. But during his time, the national debt has gone from $12 trillion or $13 trillion to $31-plus (trillion), and … the only time in modern history that we’ve gotten our spending under control has been when Republicans and Democrats worked together. It was Boehner-Obama, it was other Republicans in Congress and Democrats in the White House, when … they’ve made tough decisions or vice versa. But it takes it takes cross-partisan work or bipartisan work to get our spending under control. There’s no other way. And so on inflation, though there are other things we need to do, we need to incentivize the return of critical manufacturing to America. The world is going to continue to be, I’m sorry to say, an unstable place, perhaps increasingly. So, I believe in trade; it’s important. But when our trading partners aren’t capable to trade because they’ve been invaded or they’re invading, or they have 100% lockdowns because of COVID, then we can’t trade with them, and that creates inflation as well and … it creates a national security risk in addition to the economic challenges. So that’s why we need to incentivize the return of critical manufacturing. I would have supported the CHIPS Act — Sen. Lee did not, Sen. Romney did. It was a mistake for Lee not to do that. He talks a great game about wanting to lower inflation, but when it comes to it, what does he do? He votes against CHIPS, he introduces a bill that would prohibit the taxpayer from negotiating lower prescription drug costs as a part of the free market. He’s not serious about inflation. What else can we do? We need to improve our energy independence. I think in the near term we need to offset the lack of supply from the Russians and hydrocarbons. Yes, I do. But and we can do that through domestic production. But fossil fuels are still priced on an international market. So if Russia continues invading countries, that’s going to mean … fossil fuels that we produce here in America … we see inflation for that energy, which is why cleaner sources of energy are so, another reason why they’re so important is they’re more independent, from a market pricing perspective. And that’s why in the long term, investing in greater energy independence, which is also cleaner sources of energy, can can protect us, but that’s in the long term. Should be as quickly as we can, but it still is not, you know, we have to bring down prices at the pump and to do that we have to offset the Russian supply shock.

Otherwise, I would be in favor of passing legislation that would help would improve the ability of Congress to act more responsibly, fiscally. … I’m talking about government spending. So allowing, the taxpayer to fully negotiate on prescription drugs helps take pressure off of our budget, and we can reduce spending that way. We can also reduce spending by avoiding unnecessary wars. We’ve haven’t been too good at that. We shouldn’t have been in Iraq in the first place. And in Afghanistan, we needed to go there and take out al-Qaeda. I certainly support that. But somehow along the way we thought that we could make Afghanistan into America and it was totally unrealistic. And we spent too long at troop force levels that were very costly and we need to be better about restraining ourselves when it comes to how we engage militarily, and that takes pressure off the budget, now and long into the future, because you have troops who come back and they’re hurt in various ways, and it’s our obligation to stand with them. And so the cost of war has a very long, long tail in many regards.

KONIG: Did you want to make a closing statement or anything?

McMULLIN: I’ve said it all before but just so that you know that I care deeply about it, the country needs Utah’s leadership. I truly believe that. Look at it, look at the country and then look at us and tell me that the country doesn’t need more influence from our state. We have two very different senators. One senator in Sen. Romney who works across party lines to get things done. And he is one of the most productive, effective, influential senators in the chamber. And then we have another senator who refuses to engage productively in the process, has failed to get nearly anything of consequence done in the Senate. He’s only passed 10 bills in 12 years, at least three of them named federal buildings. We can do better than that. If we have two senators standing between the two parties, working with both sides to get things done, we will help ensure that America remains strong for our children and for our grandchildren. The country is at a crossroads. I think we all feel it. And we have a better way of doing things here in Utah and it is not … Lee’s approach. I’m committed to working closely with Sen. Romney. He’s a good friend. And I assure you I will not spend my time on cable news attacking Sen. Romney and begging for his children’s campaign donations. Rather I’ll work closely with Sen. Romney and and it will make Utah the most influential state in the union.